Audi S4 replacement - What to buy next? <update: BMW 335i testdrive details>

[sameerrao]

I am thinking about finding a replacement for the Audi. Right now I am still in the thinking and evaluation stage and wanted to get your thoughts on it ...

The S4 has been pretty good to me over the years but with age has started to become expensive to maintain:

• Last year, I put down $2000 for a 70,000 mile service + timing belt + water pump replacement + some front suspension work.
• Last week, I took the car in to my service guy for two issues: got a check engine light due to a faulty O2 sensor and also noticed that there was some oil on my valve covers that dripped onto manifold and caused smoke to rise in the morning as the oil burned away from the heat of the turbos. Replacing the O2 sensor and gaskets and associated work is going to cost about $1000. The mech also pointed out that the motor mounts and upper link suspension (not the part replaced last year) was showing some wear. Both items would need to be replaced some time in the future - probably another $1000.

Other than that, he pronounced the car to be in good health. Personally, if were to do a maintenance/repair projection for the next 5 years, I think the car is going to cost $5,000 - $10,000 (latter figure assumes the turbos will fail at some time). The car is worth about $10,000 (private party) and $8,000 (trade in value).

Why I should sell it:
- Try something else - I have had the car for 9 years and am itching for a change - right now it is a mild itch but it will be a major one soon  
- Get something less maintenance intensive - I have the Ferrari

Why I should not sell:
- It is a known car - I have all its history from new
- Other cars in my budget will also cost money to maintain.

I made a list of criteria of factors that I wanted to see in the new car:
- Must be fun to drive: not looking for a Corolla. Decent handling and decent speed. Doesn't have to be as fast as the S4 but 70% of it's speed is good enough
- Must cost under $20,000 - I am not interested in loosing 10000s in depreciation - been there, got the T-shirt
- Used cars are okay.
- Must be a four door sedan.
- Must be luxurious and comfortable - want leather, wood, decent looks like the S4 etc. Not interested in a stiff arsed car like the WRX or Evo  - have the Ferrari for that
- Compact to mid size - for reference A4 is the min size and A6 is the max size
- Cannot be an Audi - want to experience another marque
- Must be reliable and relatively maintenance light (emphasis on relative - it is not a Corolla). It is going to be a daily driver.
- RWD 1st preference. AWD okay - no snow in Texas and winters here are relatively mild.
- Nice to have: Should have a nice engine note - the S4 is too quiet. A thrumming V8 would be nice
- Would prefer a non turbo / supercharged car for lower maintenance and more progressive throttle
- Would prefer a manual. Dont want a SMG/Dual clutch/etc. Wouldn't mind an automatic only if the car makes monster power.  
- Petrol/gasoline engine - no hybrid/diesel other nonsense
 
Pretty small list eh? Not too picky am I?  

I realize the Audi fans on TAU are putting out a fatwa on me as they read this   and will probably hire the Arman-inator to assassinate me with the poisoned umbrella trick.  

So here's my short list of cars (in no particular order) that I thought up:
1. E90 BMW 330i (2006)
Pretty similar performance to a stock S4. Great fuel economy. Meets most of the above criteria - must try to find one without run flats. Can get a 50K mile car for about $16,000-17,000. Being relatively new - it should give me about years of peaceful ownership before starting to need its big maintenance items. Other possibilities: Rejected the 335i - it will be a maintenance hog. 325i/328i with its 3.0 liter engine will be about 10% slower - maybe I can get a newer car or one with less miles. Older 325i/330is dont interest me as much - they will be cheap. I will put them on the back burner.

2. Mercedes W211 E55 AMG (2003-2006)
Monster power - 500+ lb-ft of torque. Killer looks. Will be expensive to maintain for sure with its tricky adjustable suspension and supercharger. But the power .. mamma mia.   Price wise I might have to wait about 1-2 years for it to fall into my budget.

3. Mercedes W203 C55 AMG (2005-06)
Fast but not as fast as the E55! Better handling than the E55. Looks a bit dull IMO with its peanut headlamps and might wonder if I should have bought an E55 instead. Would be a bunch cheaper to maintain than the E55. Might find a 50k mile car in my price range. If I wait a year or two, I should get a slightly lower mile car.

4. BMW E39 M5 (2002-2003)
One of my dream cars. More expensive to maintain than the 3 series for sure. But should be much cheaper than the E55 AMG. Great handling for a luxo barge. Great engine. Would barely fall into my budget or perhaps wait a year or two and get a cherry car with all the right mods and service done. Need to think about the potential for oil sludge / VANOS issues
 
5. Over to you ... give me your suggestions assuming that they might most/all of the criteria listed above. Don't assume my mind is made up already.  

Also would like to know if you have some gotchas and other useful info about the cars that I have picked. I am also starting to research them but any more info would be great.

[regele]

M5 or E55 
But if you want lower maintenance and a newer car the 330i is a good choice, the C55 looks dull.

[pterps]

I got a ride in an AMG last night (CL63) and I was impressed by the power and the comfort! But choosing between an E55 or an M5 will be difficult I think (have never driven an M5 though).

Succes

[Thamar]

How about Volvo S60R (300hp)/T5 AWD (260hp)

Volvo has very good seats, the 5 cilinder engine sounds great, it's AWD, reliable and maintenance is ok...



And about the wood, wood is for furniture, it doesn't belong in a car!

[ARMAN]

ready for service

From that list I'd take M5, have to be the one with clear history and the best with all vital(expensive) parts already changed

[brembo]

You are dead to me Samerrao.....

I understand you wanting to change into something different as you have owned this gloriuos machine for 9 years...

I know you said not an Audi, but the B7 RS4 got all you want awd, V8 luxury sporty 4 doors and so on....well I had to say it...

I dont know really other than that I dont thrust Volvo completly Thamars suggestion aint that bad really the R is a great car...and I also agree with Thamar on the wood thats for boats not cars...come on Samerrao, aluminum or carbon fibre are ok in cars...

How about the the new Golf R or the "old" R32?  The new R will get awd a claimed 0-62 in 6,5, but tests have shown 5,7 I think it was so not shabby at all...you get it in 4 doors and the design is nice imo both the old and the new one...

Hope you find a car that suits you, and when you are done with that car can go back to Ingolstadt everybody needs a fling from time to time so I understand, the important words are "to death do us apart".... and it can be arranged....

[ZfrkS62]

- Must be fun to drive: not looking for a Corolla.

well, i WAS going to offer a straight up trade, but you can forget it now 

I think you need to find a tech that is willing to do work on the side. that way things are a lot cheaper

Give the 335's about 6 more months. The problems they've been seeing with the misfires have been very largely due to the high pressure fuel pumps. BMW JUST released the new high pressure pumps which they feel is a night and day improvement over the old part number. As a result of all these problems, the warranty on these pumps have been extended to either 100,000 or 120,000 miles. Can't remember which one it is. The 335's aren't going to require any more maintenance than the 328. Since we don't deal with timing belts, that's one less expensive service to pay for. The Condition Based Service idea has done away with the inspection services that used to cost an arm and a leg, and has been replaced with the Vehicle Check, which is essentially a visual inspection of the car, which most dealerships offer as a courtesy anyway. Hell, in Houston, the xi's should be cheaper than the i since there's really no reason to have all-wheel drive down there.

The runflats aren't as bad as they used to be, but I would still avoid the Bridgestone Potenzas (RE050A) as they've been proving to be kinda of weak on the inner shoulders.

I would find one that's had the oil cooler installed and then flash the ECU with the Dinan Stage 2 (or equivalent) programming and walk away from the M3's

[sameerrao]

First of all thanks for your opinions - I really appreciate it.

M5 or E55 
But if you want lower maintenance and a newer car the 330i is a good choice, the C55 looks dull.

Definitely agree on the C55 looks comment - it is nice but not that distinctive -can't easily distinguish it from a C240/320. BUT if it is in black with a more aggressive wheels and grill, I think it will look real nice - see below.

Other than that it is a great car with a decent interior


The E55 has amazing street presence - looks like a wrestler in a Armani suit.


The C63 looks real wicked and is f...... fast to boot

I got a ride in an AMG last night (CL63) and I was impressed by the power and the comfort! But choosing between an E55 or an M5 will be difficult I think (have never driven an M5 though).

Succes

The M5 will be better handling and less problematic. The E55 will be quicker (lot) and more roomy/comfortable. Tough choice indeed.

How about Volvo S60R (300hp)/T5 AWD (260hp)

Volvo has very good seats, the 5 cilinder engine sounds great, it's AWD, reliable and maintenance is ok...



And about the wood, wood is for furniture, it doesn't belong in a car!

I'll look into the S60R- Volvo didn't even get into my radar to be honest. I need to check what the service network and part availability is .. Volvos (all of them) are rare cars here in Texas. Thanks for the suggestion

About the comment of wood - I disagree, it adds a lot of warmth to the interior. Besides, I think it is pretty hard wearing - the wood on my S4 has lasted pretty well without blemish. About the other materials ... let's see carbon fiber is nice but looks a bit poseur IMO in a heavy 3600-4500 lb car - I find it pretentious in a 3000lb F430 as well - it belongs in a featherweight race car or a stripped out road car like the Challenge Stradale and nowhere else.  But that's just me. Aluminium - I love the engine turned look - but hard to find this in a non-RR/Bentley. The normal aluminium panels that comes on cars here looks a bit plastic-ey in my opinion. Also I wonder if they scratch easily over time?

ready for service

From that list I'd take M5, have to be the one with clear history and the best with all vital(expensive) parts already changed

Your opinion is noted bimmerboy I need to research and buy a good car and not money pit

You are dead to me Samerrao.....

I understand you wanting to change into something different as you have owned this gloriuos machine for 9 years...

I know you said not an Audi, but the B7 RS4 got all you want awd, V8 luxury sporty 4 doors and so on....well I had to say it...

I dont know really other than that I dont thrust Volvo completly Thamars suggestion aint that bad really the R is a great car...and I also agree with Thamar on the wood thats for boats not cars...come on Samerrao, aluminum or carbon fibre are ok in cars...

How about the the new Golf R or the "old" R32?  The new R will get awd a claimed 0-62 in 6,5, but tests have shown 5,7 I think it was so not shabby at all...you get it in 4 doors and the design is nice imo both the old and the new one...

Hope you find a car that suits you, and when you are done with that car can go back to Ingolstadt everybody needs a fling from time to time so I understand, the important words are "to death do us apart".... and it can be arranged....

I agree with the RS4 - it is a fantastic car with a superb engine, But sadly it costs about $40K (double my budget). And like you correctly surmised, I am not dismissing Audi for ever - I am open to buying one down the road. Just want to try another marque for now

The R32 will be too small - it is a 2 door car (at least the ones that I saw were 2 doors). I need to haul relatives and several bags of mulch and junk like that - need a big boot. Actually I am not so thrilled to move into a VW from an Audi - chalk it up to ego.

well, i WAS going to offer a straight up trade, but you can forget it now 

I think you need to find a tech that is willing to do work on the side. that way things are a lot cheaper

Give the 335's about 6 more months. The problems they've been seeing with the misfires have been very largely due to the high pressure fuel pumps. BMW JUST released the new high pressure pumps which they feel is a night and day improvement over the old part number. As a result of all these problems, the warranty on these pumps have been extended to either 100,000 or 120,000 miles. Can't remember which one it is. The 335's aren't going to require any more maintenance than the 328. Since we don't deal with timing belts, that's one less expensive service to pay for. The Condition Based Service idea has done away with the inspection services that used to cost an arm and a leg, and has been replaced with the Vehicle Check, which is essentially a visual inspection of the car, which most dealerships offer as a courtesy anyway. Hell, in Houston, the xi's should be cheaper than the i since there's really no reason to have all-wheel drive down there.

The runflats aren't as bad as they used to be, but I would still avoid the Bridgestone Potenzas (RE050A) as they've been proving to be kinda of weak on the inner shoulders.

I would find one that's had the oil cooler installed and then flash the ECU with the Dinan Stage 2 (or equivalent) programming and walk away from the M3's

I was really hoping you would chime in ....

335s - what about the turbos - are they pretty reliable beasts?
E39 M5 - what's your take on these cars - what should I be looking for?
How do the equivalent 5 series compare to the 3 series 535 vs 335 or 530 vs 330?
ARe the V8 BMWs expensive to maintain - 545i for example?
I guess you may need to open a thread - Zman's guide to buying BMWs - an insider's viewpoint   

[ZfrkS62]

the physical turbos themselves have been bulletproof. There have been a few nitpicky customers who have complained about a rattle from the wastegates but i've not seen them actually fail. Take care of the oil changes on time and the turbos should last.

Don't see many E39 M5's with serious issues. They either all go to independent shops or stay in the garage. I do know that occasionally the drive units in the seats can get out of phase and adjust the seat unevenly. Be wary of low mileage cars though, they could be prone to carbon build up in the secondary air passages which will trip a check engine light and require cylinder head removal to clean up. I have also seen the VANOS units start jamming up. That's one of those things where parts cost is almost as much, if not more than labor cost.

I've always liked the 545's power. However one thing i've never liked is how much damage a pothole can deal to an all aluminum front end. A solid enough whack and you're looking at replacing a lot more than just a strut tower like the E46's did. There's also an issue with the cooling system in that not only do you have to think about the valley pan leaking, but also a tube behind the front timing cover that leaks. Repairing this requires removal of both upper and lower timing covers to get to it. You could end up looking at upwards of 7K to repair it. The problem is less than common, but not unheard of either.

Valve cover gaskets, when they leak are also close to 8 hours to replace, so once that starts happening, like all our V8 cars, they will, at some point, cost you 6k+ in one foul swoop so i'd make sure to have a small emergency fund to take care of the car.

now, 530 vs 330, we have a nice little gray area to work with since the M54 was available on the E60 up to '06, you can still pick between an E39 and E60. I'm still a fan of the M54 motors. They just look a lot more "in place" than the N52's in the engine bay. M54's are also very predictable as to what goes wrong. Not much. The N52's are still too new and there aren't too many with high mileage or that are out of warranty. 

With the N52's, low mileage examples can develop a nasty rattle associated with the lifters. Still under warranty, the lifters will get replaced first, and if that still doesn't solve the issue, the cylinder head will get replaced. Personally, I think the 530 feels a little heavy. If you're leaning towards an E60, go with the 535. Better bang for the buck compared to a 545 and a much better feel than the 530. Of course, transmission selection on all of these is going to be down to what you can find, more so than preference, mainly because more 5's were ordered with automatics, and the ones who got the manuals aren't going to let them go (same reason why the E39 540is is still holding it's value). Word of warning about the 535 though, I've seen a couple of them decide that their oil cooler heat exchangers weren't sufficient and blew them up. BIG mess.

E39 540. Here's what to watch out for: At 60-80,000 miles the intake manifold will need a reseal. This will be indicted by 1 of 2 things. Check engine light and running rough due to an air leak, or a high pitched whistle from the back of the motor. This is the rubber diaphragm in the crank case vent valve that tears and creates a noise comparable to blowing over the mouth of a bottle. occasionally, this will trip the check engine light as well. Under the intake manifold is an aluminum cap called the valley pan. Why BMW put this between the cylinder heads under the intake manifold I have no clue. But they did something very similar on the N62 V8's in the E60, so they did NOT learn their lesson. Parts cost is cheap to fix these items. Labor is not.

Expect the valve cover and VANOS gaskets to leak about the same time. Possibly upper timing cover gaskets as well. Thrust rod bushings in the front end like to wear out too. All of this will typically happen about the same time.

As you get closer to 100,000 miles, rear ball joints will probably start loosen, depending on how hard the car is driven. If you're lucky, you can find a car with most of this stuff already done, but chances are if someone is going to sink 4-6K into their car, they aren't going to sell it any time soon

[danidmas]

Since I'm also "in the market" for a beemer... this topic also interests me, in a way. From all the cars you've mentioned... I'd go for the 330i as the sensible option, and the M5 as the car-enthusiast perfect car. I guess it's up to you to decide, but the M5 looks to be quite pricey to maintain.

Having a "fun car" already in the garage (and no less than a Ferrari!!) if I were you I'd go for a more relaxing car... especially if you don't want any surprises in future services, and maintainance costs. What about a 320i or something like that? I know... 170hp sound like dead slow compared to the S4, but you've got the Ferrari to drive fast. For the same budget, then you could find almost brand-new options to chose from.

That's why in my case, with the GT Turbo in the garage, my next daily drive will be an automatic/DSG something, either if it's a 320i Touring, or an A4 Avant.

[ZfrkS62]

Since I'm also "in the market" for a beemer... this topic also interests me, in a way. From all the cars you've mentioned... I'd go for the 330i as the sensible option, and the M5 as the car-enthusiast perfect car. I guess it's up to you to decide, but the M5 looks to be quite pricey to maintain.

Having a "fun car" already in the garage (and no less than a Ferrari!!) if I were you I'd go for a more relaxing car... especially if you don't want any surprises in future services, and maintainance costs. What about a 320i or something like that? I know... 170hp sound like dead slow compared to the S4, but you've got the Ferrari to drive fast. For the same budget, then you could find almost brand-new options to chose from.

That's why in my case, with the GT Turbo in the garage, my next daily drive will be an automatic/DSG something, either if it's a 320i Touring, or an A4 Avant.

320i's aren't available in the US market unless you're going for an E21, which comes nowhere close to 170-hp

The 330 delivers some great torque, but if i was going to drop money on an E90, it would be a 335. for a 330, I'd go looking for an E46 Sport Package with shadowline trim, shell out the extra scratch for the CSL rims and call it good

Any performance car is going to cost money to maintain at some point in it's life. If you're looking at an E39 M5, i would suggest a post 2000 MY as the earlier examples had a couple of issues with the 10w-60 motorsport oil. (not to mention the shit costs upward of $12/quart (975ml))

[yeckmohr]

okay i'm a merc fan, but i'll try to see this realistic.
you should choose instead of the E 55 the C 55, because it looks more beasty and it's not so heavy.

i always like the M5, it's a really good choice, but also a huge car, it depends on you, as a replacement for the S4, the smaller car would be perfect, if you will feel a heavy car, you
should choose one of these.

PS: I don't like the W203 with the peanut lights in front.

[Guyon]

M5! That's what I immediately thought of when I saw that it had to be 4-door.The Volvo S60R isn't bad either if you can deal with the performance loss.

[DMF]

Don't take this negatively in anyway Sameer.... but

Just be a man and get a E39 M5. Search for the best example you can find. Jump into it and never look back. Sure the maintenance will be a bitch, but at least that's a deferred cost, hopefully further down the road of ownership.

[sameerrao]

@ZMan ... thanks a bunch for the valuable info. I feel better about the 335i now. A preliminary scan of Certified Pre-owned cars shows that the 2006 330i can be got for around $21-23k while the 2007 335i is priced at around $24-28k. Non certified cars can be got for a bit less but the peace of mind with the CPO warranty (6 years or 100K miles from date of original purchase) is worth it IMO.

I am seeing a couple M5s in the low $20s but they all have 100K - 125K miles on it - about ripe for some significant wear and tear related replacement.

Still checking on various boards. Lot of guys are highly recommending the 335i for its driving characteristics but some want to sell it when the warranty expires unlike the 330i where people are comfortable enough to keep it long term - i.e. 100k-150k miles.

[ZfrkS62]

The CPO warranty is kinda limited, but it still covers the drivetrain, most of the electrical system and the climate control, so most of your worries are covered. Keep in mind also that there is a federal emissions warranty of 8 years 80,000 miles on the engine control unit and catalytic converters.

I think you'll be pretty satisfied either way you go.

[sameerrao]

Yesterday, my wife and I went over to our nearby BMW dealership to check out the cars on the lot. They had two 335i - both were equipped pretty much as I would want it - Sport/Premium/Cold Weather but unfortunately they had the Steptronic transmission and didn't have idrive.

Getting a manual 335 seems to be a difficult task in my neck of the woods - most folks here use automatics for commuting. I carefully looked over the car and also did a short test drive to check out the steptronic. I thought that with a powerful engine it may not be too boring or annoying. I then repeated the same driving loop in my S4 so that I could a quick back to back comparison and provide some color commentary on the 335i.

In the text that follows, keep in mind I am comparing a 2001 s4 with 65000 miles on it with a 2007 335i with 30000 miles on it.

Here are my impressions:

Exterior design
I like the shape of the  E90/E92. I think it is probably the best BMW design in the last few years. The character lines along the flanks and hood exude a sense of purpose and menace. The wheels (sport package style particularly) nicely fill out the gaps and match very well to the overall design. I think the rear lights are a less successful design. Otherwise overall it looks the business. I think it looks best in a few colors - my wife and I liked it in black, space gray, titanium silver and white. BMW blues are awful, silver is boring.

The Audi S4 looks pretty damn good for a 10 year old design. I think its blue color really suits it. But against the BMW it looks a little less purposeful.

335i: 9 - aggressive design
S4: 8 - timeless looks

Interior design
Just a reminder -we saw the car without idrive - that changes the design inside somewhat. On the inside, the sport package provides the highly bolstered seats, a smaller three spoke steering wheel with the thicker rim. THe premium package provides the leather, garage door opener and few other minor stuff.

Design wise, I think it nice and clean and ergonomic. The stereo and a/c vents are closer to the driver in the Bimmer compared to the S4 where the buttons are positioned lower in the console - you sometimes need to take your eye off the road to find them. The wheel is fantastic - very grippy and nice. The sight lines are very good upfront and not so good when checking the rear view (is a result of the high boot line.

I like the steering wheel controls for the stereo and also the better design to the cruise control switches. Also love the A/c vents in the rear cabin - sometimes I get complaints from the rear passengers in the S4 that they don't get enough air. You end up freezing in the front just to keep the rear people cool.

One of the demerits in the BMW is that I feel the cabin is a little claustrophobic - a function of the high belt line and smaller side windows. With the sunroof I got the sense there was about 1/2" more space in the head area.

Another demerit is that the instrument panel gauges are quite small - the speedo particularly. It will take some getting used to coming from the large clear displays in the Audi. I also felt the leather and plastics in the S4 were to be much better quality than the E90 series.

Overall the 335i looks great. I think from a wear standpoint a charcoal interior would be best but it kinda resembles a coal bin at night.

Both the Audi and BMW have a nice red color to the instrumentation - it looks sporty but is actually relaxing to see at night time.

335i: 8 - better ergonomics
S4: 8 - superb material selection and airy cabin

Interior room:
The BMW has the Audi beat convincingly. The E90 is a bigger car overall The S4 is really a 3 passenger car with me driving - I keep the seat all the way back. With similar seating positions there is about a 1.5" of space extra in rear leg space. There seems to be more lateral space and shoulder room as well. Sometimes in the Audi when you shift into fifth or sixth gear, you ending up brushing the leg of the passenger. I don't think this will happen in the BMW.

Even compared to the 5 series, the 3 series does pretty okay - the difference isn't that much.

335i: 10 - roomy front and rear
S4: 6 - okay front and cramped rear

Trunk space:
The 335i provides a taller and roomier boot - you can get larger packages in it. I need to get a car with Cold weather package or split folding seats as a stand alone option. The S4 boot is shallower but longer by comparison.

335i: 8
S4: 7

Ride:
The 335i had the sport package with 18" wheels and run flat tires (Bridgestone RE050). The S4 has 18" wheels too with Kumho Ecsta SPT. Both have a sports suspension. I felt the BMW has an amazing ride - it cushions the bumps very well without getting floaty. The S4 springs and dampers are not as good - you get a bumpy ride without the payback in body control or handling. Guess that's why most S4 owners upgrade their springs/dampers

335i: 10 - perfect
S4: 7 - bumpy

Handling:
The 335i is a revelation - that it combine an awesome ride with sports car flat cornering is amazing. Remember, I drove both cars back to back to make sure I could make an accurate assessment.

With its flat cornering and decent feel in the steering wheel -the 335i provides a lot of confidence to the driver. The front end is lot more responsive and lighter. No wonder so many BMW drivers drive like dicks on the road

The seats are incredible - it holds you in place nicely without smothering you. The S4 seats are a little slippery - you tend to move about a lot more. My wife loved the 335i's seats and flat cornering.

A point to note - I drove in the dry conditions. I am sure the quattro is more secure in the wet. But overall the BMW is superior.

335i: 10 - perfect thanks its better weight distribution
S4: 8 - floaty through corners, light steering wheel with less feel

Brakes:
I upgraded the S4 with Hawk pads. With this combination, it stops pretty well. With stock brakes there was significant fade after about 3-4 hard applications. The European S4s had better brakes on it

The 335i stops better than the S4 for whatever reason. It just does. Also there is less front dive.

335i: 9 - confidence inspiring
S4: 8

Power:
The 335i makes 302hp/295lb-ft while the chipped S4 makes 300hp/360lb-ft. Both cars weigh about 3600lb. I was comparing a 6sp auto 335i to a 6sp manual S4. Overall the S4 is quicker. Whatever the situation: standing start, merging, 60 - 80mph in top gear, it was faster.  I wonder if driving the manual 335i would make a difference.

The surprising thing about the twin turbo in the 335 is that you rarely ever get that on boost feel --> The engine makes power very linearly. The S4 by contrast provides it power in a big burst around 3000 rpm and hurtles to the horizon. There is a definite kick in the ass with the S4.

But I am sure if you put the stop watch to it there wouldn't be that much of a difference between the two. Both would do a 5 second 0-60 (but not with me behind the wheel)

335i: 8
S4: 9

Engine sound:
The 335i sounds pretty good for a turbo car. YOu can clearly hear it inside the car. The S4 is like a Lexus - the tire sounds are louder than the engine. I want to compre to a NA 330i to figure out if a NA engine is better.

Note: the V8 powered competition would sound much better.

335i: 8
S4: 4


Gearbox:
Comparing the automatic 335i to the manual in the S4. The 335i automatic sucks IMO - if you drive pedal to the metal all the time, I think it shifts great but otherwise it shifts too much (at least in my opinion) and too harshly (no rev match). Hard to keep a smooth progression when accelerating at moderate speeds. The sports package provides a paddle upshift/downshift feature but it is probable the worst paddle design in the world just like Porsche. You need to push or pull the same pedal to upshift or downshift. Why couldn't they follow the Ferrari or even the BMW M3/M5 SMG logic. Pure garbage.

So in a nutshell, the regular automatic sucks and in manual mode it sucks as well. No substitute for a true manual or at least a SMG transmission

S4: 9 - great gear ratios, easy shifting
335i auto: 2 - just awful

Overall:
I think the biggest difference between the two cars is the power and how it is integrated with the rest of the car. The US spec S4 has an almighty engine but the the brakes, suspension are relatively lacking. You therefore cannot use all the power. The 335i by contrast is a better integrated design - you know you can use all the power with the existing brakes and suspension. In fact I think there is scope for more power through chipping it without worry of overwhelming the rest of the car.

The S4 itself needs a lot more mods to cope with the power. It is a great car that can humble the so called sports sedans of today but against the 335i it falls short on a number of parameters
335: 9
S4:7

Actually apart from the power difference, I think a NA 330i equipped similarly will pretty much score the same as the 335i with lower long term repair and maintenance costs

[ZfrkS62]

what have you done to the S4 in terms of suspension? new struts recently? remember, the 335 has pretty new struts, springs, bushings compared tot he 10 years of wear and tear on the Audi.

That said, i can tell you that shifting into 6th in the 335 does not cause the passenger to consider filing sexual harassment charges against you. The shifter isn't exactly a short throw but it's not a mile and a half between gears either.

If you do get the 335, tell them you want the Bridgstones off, and Continentals fitted. Or just order a set of Ecstas for it. The RE050A's have a problem that isn't being addressed by the engineers, at least not to the techs. They love to wear out the inner shoulders and only last about 20K miles if you're lucky.

I think you'll be a lot happier with the 335. Just save a little bit of money for the speeding ticket lawyer (and possibly bail)

[sameerrao]

what have you done to the S4 in terms of suspension? new struts recently? remember, the 335 has pretty new struts, springs, bushings compared tot he 10 years of wear and tear on the Audi.

That said, i can tell you that shifting into 6th in the 335 does not cause the passenger to consider filing sexual harassment charges against you. The shifter isn't exactly a short throw but it's not a mile and a half between gears either.

If you do get the 335, tell them you want the Bridgstones off, and Continentals fitted. Or just order a set of Ecstas for it. The RE050A's have a problem that isn't being addressed by the engineers, at least not to the techs. They love to wear out the inner shoulders and only last about 20K miles if you're lucky.

I think you'll be a lot happier with the 335. Just save a little bit of money for the speeding ticket lawyer (and possibly bail)

Agreed on the "unfair" comparo - hence I mentioned it up front.

Good point to note about the Bridgestones. Is it possible to swap out for an set of non-RFTs - any issues with that?

I am not too bothered about the speeding tickets. If I do get the 335i, it will be swapping like for like - S4 is faster but the 335i handles better.

[ZfrkS62]

non RFT's are a bitch because of the rim design. They re-engineered the rims to make install/removal a little less difficult due to the stiffer sidewall. They've also taken the sidewalls into consideration in setting up the suspension since the tires are no longer as big of a suspension component as they used to be (less give in the tire to absorb speed bumps, potholes and curbs).

You'd need new rims to go with the non-RFT's, which slipped my mind when suggesting the Kuhmo Ecsta