The Military Thread

[Darkel]

Here it is  I know sentra and schwalbe are also into this sort of discussions but I hope everyone will find bits of interesting trivia here and there 

Everything military oriented can be discussed/shown here, tactics, anecdotes, books, equipment relating to current or past conflicts.

Let's not make it the redneck corner though 

Also, I don't think it's likely to happen here but there have been problems on other boards, I'd like to say that even though we talk about weapons and war, the participants to this topic do not condone in any way the ideologies and political systems that led to those equipments being used against other human beings. It's especially important when it comes to WWII IMO.

This being said let me kick this off with a short history of the German Tiger II tank  As I said numerous times before  I've become some sort of a WWII aficionado .. the few stories and descriptions of this period that I intend to share come from a French forum, with the authorization of its author; this guy shares incredible stuff and it would be too bad not to share it because of the language barrier.
This tank is sort of iconic of the shortcomings and issues experienced by the German army in the last years of WWII ..



Hardly has the Tiger tank entered active service in 1942 that the German High Command requires a bigger, stronger, more heavily armored tank to be built.

Porsche and Henschel are both interested in the project. The one designed by Porsche is certainly attractive on paper but it's an engineer's dream, their concept was some sort of a hybrid with an electric transmission and a regular gas engine that had an unfortunate tendency to catch on fire every time it was brought to the proving ground ..

Henschel's prototype was much simpler, they just took the good old 12 cylinders Maybach, managed to crank it up to 700hp and made do ..

Porsche lost the market but still managed to have 50 Porsche designed turrets built on the Tiger II, they were so certain to get the job that they had already started production. Unfortunately those suffered from a design flaw, the sloped armor right under the main gun had a tendency to deflect incoming rounds into the top of the tank's body .. the least armored part of the tank !


One of the rare known pictures of a Porsche turret on the Tiger II

Henschel built its own turret on the rest of the production. Production started in 1944.
Its 88mm gun overpowered pretty much everything the allied could align, the Tiger II (also known as the King Tiger) could destroy a Sherman or a T34 at a distance where the opposing tank had absolutely no chance of hitting it ..



Yet, this monster suffered from numerous flaws, the worst one being its weight : 69.4 tonnes .. that's more than an M1 Abrams ! It prevented it from crossing many bridges.

This one can be seen at the Musée des Blindés in Saumur, it's in working condition and is equipped with the Henschel turret :


It goes without saying that with all this weight to carry, the Maybach engine ran at full throttle as soon as the tank started moving forward.
Its theoretical range (with a 870 litres fuel capacity) was ... 170 kilometers on regular roads at cruising speed.

A Tiger II was seen running out of fuel after only 65 kilometers on greasy terrain, that thing drank fuel like a pile of sand 

Theoretical high speed : 41 km/h
Cross country : 18 km/h

Safe to say that this tank wasn't really agile, it was useful for static ambushes but not so much on free terrain where the allies could just drive around it.

Armament : 1 Kwk L/71 88mm gun, two 7.92mm MG34 machine guns
Crew : 5 men, but 4 and sometimes only 3 in the last weeks of the war

The last Tiger II tank left the Kassel production lines on the 29th of March 1945, it only had a single coat of rustproof Oxydrot paint as camouflage.


January 1945 in the Ardennes, American soldiers walk by a knocked out Tiger II tank

492 tanks were built, compared to 1 341 Tiger or 48 000 Sherman tanks.

[yeckmohr]

you forgot me christophe  .

thanks mate for this topic, you are right, sometimes it's not easy to deal with the german nazi history, especially for me as a german, but i must say if you see what we created in tank and weapon history with all the german engineering efforts it's amazing, where would be today without german war technology.
In the last days of the german reich, the tiger tanks in berlin drove with night vision equipment, look at all the fighter planes and the rockets, someday we will got to mars with that.

In the tiger tank was maybach engine, porsche designed the tank mark IV etc.
schwalbe and me went last year to the german tank museum in munster, we saw there the kingtiger and so much special tanks, we went to luftwaffenmuseum near berlin and so the first rocket plane.

look at the well equipped troops we had, today many other armies would be lucky to have these kind of soldiers like the WSS.

Today i read that germany has to pay the last money on sunday to the EU after paying 92 years over 70 million euro for "starting" and loosing WWI, all in the contract of versailles.

i think speaking about our history must be now a normal job nowadays.
I'm not a nazi or something, i'm only interested in military history and equipment. i will post more pics in this topic.
in my family, two members got the iron crosses in both war's and some other medals, which are rare and very expensive these days.

i can understand any suggestions from someones side to this thread, who was involved by nazi terror with his family, it needs no discussion, here it's only about equipment and technique imo.

[Darkel]

Well I kicked it off with some WW2 equipment because I think most military buffs already know about current technologies and vehicles 

I won't say too much about this whole debate because as you say the point of this topic is to focus on stories and technologies but I think it shouldn't be a problem to talk about the German military during WW2 now that more than 60 years have passed. It would appear that there's still a slight stigma in Germany but here in France anyone who would point the finger at modern germany and mention those dark years would be called a moron by pretty much everybody.
Modern Franco-German relations are something to be proud of 

In the last days of the german reich, the tiger tanks in berlin drove with night vision equipment

It would appear that only Panthers were equipped with such equipments 



http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-infrared-night-vision-devices-infrarot-scheinwerfer.htm

porsche designed the tank mark IV etc.

The Mk. IV was built by Krupp and later Steyr IIRC  I'd say Porsche technology was most used in the Elefant (which ended up being highly unreliable) and of course the Kübelwagen.

[yeckmohr]

not bad, christophe, you are right the night vision equipment was on the panther tanks.
porsche gave some drawings for 2 or 3 models to the Reichsminiterium, but they didn't build the early tanks, in the last days they used any porsche ideas.

i have to search in some books to find it, i have over 100 books about the tank technology here, do you know the very good books from the french company called "heimdal", they are expensive, but awesome and of course the books from "Ryton publications", i have all of them, i payed for the last one "Panzertruppe" 800 US $, because it's so rare.

panzermuseum munster (bundeswehr):

[Darkel]

I'm afraid I don't know any of these books, so far I've mostly read regular battle stories 

The last one I've read is this one :



I was looking for more information on the early stages of war and I found what I was looking for  It tells how the Heer "victored itself to death" and lost masses of experimented officers and NCOs that couldn't be replaced and matched by fresh recruits in the following months.

I'm currently looking for a cheaper copy of this book, they still go for more than 30€ which is a bit steep for my student budget  :/

[yeckmohr]

the best site for these kind of books is www.rzm.com, i ordered so many books there.

this book is the best book, it shows german pics ( not the allied censored version from the last days )

http://rzm.com/books/lfv/lfbk001.cfm

i don't have this hells gate, but i know it, i spend so many money on these books, i could buy a new car from it.

[Darkel]

Endkampf um das Reichsgebiet 1944-1945 looks awesome  I'll put it on my list ..

But yeah, with those prices you can't really buy 2 every month  Every time it's a bit like christmas.

There's a German book that I'll probably buy soon, I've heard it's great, August von Kageneck based one of his books on this one :

http://www.amazon.de/Endstation-Moskau-Tagebuch-eines-Frontarztes/dp/3879437335/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264024833&sr=8-2


I waited for my German classes to resume so it would be easier to read 

[Saadie]

I will Blow you all away with my






TANK BAZOOOKAAA       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zarrar 



 




here I am in a K-8 Jet trainer, my dad designed the armament unit and console for this aircraft (which is now flying in 13 countries), and the reason I was born in china  cuz dad was posted there 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongdu_JL-8

yeahh ignore the hair


heres me in an APC ( armored personal carrier )

what beautiful goggles 

[Driy]

Raytheon XOS 2 exoskeleton

[TNT]

here is my little contribution, a great site to keep up to date on modern military info.







http://www.globalsecurity.org/

[novass]

Raytheon XOS 2 exoskeleton

My GF's dad did some of the development on that suit.

[ZfrkS62]

i need to dig out the pennant my grandfather sent home from WW2. It was obviously a trophy from a tank that he had defeated on his journey across Africa while chasing down Rommel. Either that or on his tear through Munich just before the German surrender there. There's a date written on the flag, but I can't remember what it is. I think I may have posted a few years ago but can't remember. I've been trying to figure out which division it was from, but there isn't a whole lot of information on them.

[Schwalbe]

^^^^No need to watch DVDs like Band of Brothers when you can hear war stories from your Grandfather and he's lucky to have survived threw all those campaigns. None of my familly member went to war, one of my Grandfather was AAA gun engineer, he invented an anti-aircraft gun combined with a radar for Canadian Navy boats during WW2.

Like many Tauers know, I used to be an Military Strategic defense researcher for the Canadian Ministry of Defense, my research field was Aerospace (Jet fighters & Drones + Missiles), but I really like Tanks & Submarines. I still have good contacts with my former colleagues & Soldier's friends. Now I'm an Aviation Insurance Broker but military is now an Hobby & Passion and my back ground help me at my job because I insure a lot of Canadian's aircrafts operated in Irak + Afghanistan + Africa in many war zones. I'm so glad to have the chance to discuss with you guys about our common interest. Good idea Darkel and long live to this tread.      

@Darkel & @Yeckmohr: About the the Königstiger, I'm so glad to had the chance to see one in Münster with Yeckmohr. This tank is so huge and powerfull, yes it has excellent firepower and protection, but it lacks one of the key factor to be a good tank: Mobility The tank was underpower (Using the same Maybach engine in the PzKw V & VI with more weight), his transmission was too weak and his range was poor. It was suppose to be use offensively but the turn over in WW2 against the German makes the King Tiger II one of the best defensive tank. You have probably read many SS Division stories about only 2 or 3 Tiger II tanks resisting against hundreds of Russian tanks and stoping many breakthroughs. They become almost static defensive position in the Battle of the Bulge and Berlin.

IMO the best German tank was definitely the PzKw V Panther. This formidable medium tank was well protected (except weak side armo & top vulnerable to fighter-bombers), had good firepower with his high muzzle velocity 75mm KwK 42 L/70  gun (even more powerful than the Tiger' 88mm). The only problem was his mobility because his complex conception (problem with the final drive  transmission, his suspension was a nightmare to repair because of his complexity). The Reich War minister should have focus only on this tank and fix all the problems and produce this tank in mass like T-34 & Shermans. Like many other Nazi armaments, the German have realized too late to build an upgrade version of the Panther call Ausf F. 



After decades of interdiction to build new tanks after WW2, the German are back since the 60' with the great Leopard I  & II from Krauss-Maffei and reliable MTU reliable engines which now makes the best tank in the world IMO. 


@Driy: Thanks for your cool exoskeleton video, we will see a lot of development in the near future...we are more closer than we think to see combat Iron Man's style suit and Terminator robots.

[gucom]

After decades of interdiction to build new tanks after WW2, the German are back since the 60' with the great Leopard I  & II from Krauss-Maffei and reliable MTU reliable engines which now makes the best tank in the world IMO. 

that's good to hear, since my country uses the Leopard 2 I don't know very much about tanks tbh, I've always been most interested in infantry and jet fighters / helicopters. My cousin should know enough about the Leopard 2 though, he used to command 4 of them (he's now in a cavalry recon unit).

regarding WW2 stories, none of my direct ancestors did any fighting, but ofcourse the war came to them. My grandfather's brothers were all in the resistance, but my grandfather had to go in hiding during most of the was because he had been randomly selected for a work camp in germany.

My grandmom's house was confiscated by the nazis (the worst guy there, who always wanted "a certain something" from my grandmom and her sisters, was a Pole though; one day, after my grandmom and her family had to leave the house alltogether to make room for more nazis, my grandmom and her sister snuck back into the house to retrieve a secret stash of salt, which was in short supply at the time. The polish guy saw them on the roof and wanted to kill them, but the german sergeant stopped him from shooting... phew!!).
She also helped 2 Jewish girls, who were living with a nearby Dutch family, get to school safely every day untill the girls were betrayed one day and brought to a concentration camp (they didnt return).

As far as I know, my grandparents from father's side didn't really get involved, but during the last winter of the war, there was a severe famine in the big cities and my grandmom lived on a few slices of bread a week (in a very severe winter), to save as much food as possible for my 1-yo aunt, so she definitely suffered (and never fully recovered).

[ZfrkS62]

@scwalbe: My grandfather never talked about it.  There was one time he mentioned to my dad, something about it because he was at a funeral for one of his buddies and said when he looked at him in the casket, the hair on the back of his neck stood up. The only other time that had happened was when they had traveled over some very uneven terrain. For some reason he looked back and realized they were piles of dead bodies . He passed away in 1990 from cancer I think. After he retired from the army as Lt. Col. (to have made full Col. he would have had to do a tour in Korea, which he flat out did not want to do) He served on the Nuclear Energy Commission and was even in the Bikini Atolls in the Pacific during the tests there. New York Times ran his obituary too.   

I don't remember what medals he had but I know for sure he had a Purple Heart (wounded in combat). Might have been 2, but i'm not positive.

[gucom]

wow that's impressive... you often hear that people who lived through the war don't want to talk about it anymore... It's good for the younger generations to know what happened though, so that the lessons from those times can be learned. In that sense it's a massive shame that the history education in Holland has been completely ruined.

[Darkel]

Always nice to hear family stories, guys 

Gucom > as soon as I started reading your grandmother's story I wondered if she lived in the last part of Holland to be liberated, those last weeks must have been atrocious  It's a shame this part of WWII isn't well known in the rest of the world, people usually know a bit about Arnhem but that's it as far as Holland is concerned, same goes for the German bombings in 1940.

ZfrkS62 > too bad you don't know more about it, veterans often tend to keep quiet about their experiences ..

As I probably said before, both my grandfathers were forcefully recruited into the Wehrmacht (both served on 88mm flak guns), I also remember being told a story about my grandfather's uncle who fought in Verdun, I believe he's still got the few coins that were found on his body, I don't know on which side he fought though.

I was wondering, did any of your family members hold grudges against the countries they were up against ? Oddly enough my grandfather has no problem with the Germans (except the prussians who apparently acted like pretentious asshats bathed in nazi ideology) or the Russians even though he went through one of their POW camps, he considers them as comrades who went through the same hell and had no personal interest in the war.
He still dislikes the Americans very much because of their behaviour towards prisoners, they seemed very arrogant to him. Personally I believe it was due to the fact that those boys didn't choose to go to Europe either, plus there was this whole mess about the so called "non-fraternization policy" .. but he's 85 now and nothing will change his mind   

[gucom]

my grandmother who lived in Rotterdam (which, like u said, was completely bombed to pieces in 1940 to "convince" the dutch government to give up its resistance... in fact, the dutch government had already surrendered but due to some communication error or whatever, the city was bombed anyway ), and who also survived the "hunger winter" as it's known, did hold a grudge against the germans for the rest of her life I believe.
 
my grandparents from the south of the Netherlands, which was liberated late 1944, hold no grudges despite their experiences. they're my heroes by the way unbelievably modern, relaxed, and all-around awesome

[edit] a little background info on the "hunger winter", in september 1944 the Dutch railroad personnel decided to go on strike, to hinder the german war machine and to aid the allied landing near Arnhem (op. Market Garden). As a retaliation, the Nazis blocked all food and fuel transports to the western (urbanized) parts of the country, in the midst of winter, forcing the population to look for stuff like flower bulbs, and generally any organic material they could find, to supplement their food rations.

[Schwalbe]

^^^^It's true the Dutch situation during WW2 is not well known for the general population. Here in Canada because of our implication in the liberation of Netherlands it's sometimes mentionned in the media at key date that the Canadian Forces played an important role in liberating the Netherlands. But these days kids and most people don't really care about history in general. They don't know how the 1st Canadian Infantry division and the 5th Canadian Armoured Divisions fought vigorously against the mighty 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend to liberate Holland. Your family story of the WW2 era is incredible. They were very lucky to survive pass throught all those terrible situations. Oh BTW, Canada is using Leopard 2s as well and we bought 100 tanks from the Dutch Army.   

@ZfrkS62: Indeed it's sad that your Grandfather never talked about his experience at war, but it's fully understandable after all the horrors he has seen. He had a great career after his service.

@Darkel: I didn't know man that your both Grandfathers were in the Wehrmacht, it's always hard to know for people comming from your region on which side they fought during both World Wars. My Master's director in Military/Strategic Studies was born in Alsace-Lorraine as well and it was the same situation, his grandfather fought with the French during WW1 and his father with the German during WW2. Did your grandfathers kept some artefacts from their 88 Flak unity, do you have some badges, uniforms, etc ?


 

[ZfrkS62]

I was wondering, did any of your family members hold grudges against the countries they were up against ?

Well, at the time i'm sure he did considering that his family immigrated here FROM Poland I believe in the 20's. I would have to do some checking on that to be sure though. So I'm pretty sure he was far from indifferent about lobbing shells from his tanks.

To give you an idea as to how he was, the scene in Patton where he is directing the tanks through the muddy intersection, and the one guy blows through; my family jokes that it was probably my grandfather behind the wheel

Most of the things from my grandparents ended up with my uncle in west virginia after my grandmother died. We have a couple of things that have made it through, like the flag, belt buckle, medals and a binder of letters he wrote to a close friend of his and home (with certain things crossed out since he had to proof read and censor his letters to avoid inadvertently disclosing intelligence). I would like to see what else they have, but I have a feeling there's not too much.